You are absolutely right, Aaron – my posting of Morford’s article was inappropriate. Knowing that I am dealing with Invincible Ignorance makes me the idiot, not you. I DO understand that because you believe you have immortality at stake, not to mention facing never-ending Hell to endure if you give up your belief, it is quite the burden for you to consider the ideas and concepts I have been discussing. I am free of that particular ideology and have nothing more than my own attempt to be intellectually honest at stake. People have a tendency to build a prison for their minds – being convicted by their on convictions. It is oh so human. I see the cage I put myself in – disrespect for your need to escape mortality. I really should know better to dismiss such a powerful need so lightly.

 

So, I have had to reconsider why I have been engaging is such a seemingly fruitless exercise. I doubt that it is for the possible wider audience of fellow students, few if any would indulge in such a time consuming effort – and probably fewer still would really find it interesting. I think it is because throughout history – that will to believe – has dominated human history, its politics and morays. Although humans no longer stone to death nonbelievers, in most countries, we cannot run for office, and must -even in the “land of the free” have a religious veneer in our government.  It is a marginalization I resent and feel that this will not change unless people have the courage to confront it. It is because I think that the NOW is what we live in – and that death is the end of my life, not the beginning of an eternity.

 

You ask me: “

What is the purpose of life?” I am supposing
you don’t believe in a life after death. Why do you live? Is there any
purpose to this life beyond trying to have a good time?”

 

Let me give you some personal background. I am 56 yrs. old. I have raised two children – working during that time as a home health aide, a death and dying aide, a grief counselor while attending Sonoma State –majoring in Gerontology. Once my kids were adults, and I felt more freedom to follow my own personal drives; I worked as a legislative activist for a statewide nonprofit, participating in legislative changes and the creation of new laws to protect “Consumer’s Last Rights”. I worked as a researcher for AARP, the Government Accountability Office, for Jessica Mitford (a writer) and Bob Treuhaft, a civil rights lawyer. I have been interviewed countless times by reporters; have been on over a dozen TV and Radio shows (including being interviewed by Dobson himself). I started two nonprofits. Currently I work on the issues of domestic violence, homelessness and prison reform. I also – as you know, have agreed to participate as a “teacher’s aide” for Mr. Rubin’s class on Critical Thinking.  Very little of my work has involved a “living wage”. I give you all this personal background to impress upon you that a person can indeed live a life with meaning without having to do so at the direction of some god or to reap personal reward like eternal life.  But, I am hardly the exception. Here is a list of some far more famous and far more important people who have managed to contribute much to humanity without the this belief;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU

 

Another disturbing idea you state;

“I will say though, that I don’t get rid of the idea of suffering just
because of eternal life. Suffering is real, but it is a result of
disobedience.”

 

This pains me particularly because I have cared for dying Christians who were enduring great suffering and they had the added burden of the belief that God was punishing them for some “disobedience.”  I am also aware of countless infants and children who are dying of starvation – what kind of disobedience did these children commit?

 

You ask:

“What came before the Big Bang?”  And then you are suggesting that this is where god dwells- outside of time and matter.

 

Science evolves also; it takes a long time, and the daring of great minds to do the study of how the universe works. Keep in mind, it wasn’t very long ago that humans believed the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth – many people were persecuted for challenging those ideas, and like you – the religious powers believed that challenging of such notions were going against their beliefs. So, hang onto your seat, Aaron – scientists are indeed grappling once more with the unknown (although, unlike you – they do indeed think it is “knowable”;

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081216131106.htm

 

You say;

“Hitler was trying to further natural selection by eliminating “undesirables.”
You will also notice that was one example, look at all the major genocides
and you will see Atheism. I am not attacking you, but I am just contrasting
your idea that Christianity is the bloodiest religion. That is just false.”

 

I did include the link that showed that Hitler was a Catholic. Perhaps you missed it. I think this may be the reason that the Pope at that time did not excommunicate Hitler, but oddly enough – he did excommunicate –doomed to eternal hell- anyone who was cremated, like all those victims of the holocaust.  That law was just changed in 1970. What I DO agree with you on is; 1) both intolerance for other religions and 2) intolerance of religion itself have been used from the earliest day of human kind as an excuse to kill. I believe that the real motive was personal power and wealth (resources; land, water, slaves and most recently oil).  A country developed upon no god is relatively new to humans. But –again- power as the real motivator wins, look at how cozy and indebted we are to China- a country that is armed to the teeth- and how intolerant we are to Cuba- a country that wouldn’t even be able to defend itself if invaded. Longer views of history shows that Christianity has done the most killing, all those people in the “new world”, the Crusades, all those people in Africa who resisted slavery, all those people slaughtered in the name of god in the old testament, it does all add up to an impressive number, BUT –as I said before… religions, or the intolerance of them, is just a very handy tool to manipulate people. We don’t know much about the earliest civilizations, but we do know Zeus, Thor and countless other gods were used for the same purpose. You don’t believe in those gods. I just go one god further than you do, Aaron.

 

Something seems to be built into religious concepts that allows for the justification to kill rape and plunder. I guess once you can convince people that you speak for god, well – hey! What authority can be bigger than that!?  If they think you will go to hell if you disobey, and even if you die, you will live forever, I tell you Aaron, no notion created by humans has shown such promise for manipulation and abuse.

 

Of course here is where we disagree- I know you don’t advocate killing in the name of Christ (at least I am assuming so), but it doesn’t seem to bother your god one bit. Just look at the 10 commandments; Thou shall not kill, – from the Old Testament, and yet god is instructing ruthless murder in the next breath; stoning of adulterers and people who work on the Sabbath, etc.  I know you say that the Old Testament is “just a recording of history, that doesn’t mean that it was right”. But all these guys were saying that this was God’s orders. Where the authors of all those books – Moses, Solomon, Isaiah, etc all lying?  Or did god just suddenly have a change of heart?

 

Which brings up another problem I see; the conflict of being all powerful while at the same time being all knowing. If one knew everything that ever was and ever will be, then that means nothing will ever change in the future, the present, much less the past. No surprises, no changing anything. How does that leave room for being all powerful, if you cannot change anything? One belief seems to cancel out the other. And even more conflicting…how does that jibe with the notion of “free will”? If god knows everything you did and everything you will ever do, and he is the one who controls all this, at what point are you ever really free of anything? It all sounds rather mindless to me.

 

It’s all the silly things that people swallow without questioning; even the very basics, such as always referring to god as a he. Why would god need genitalia of any kind? Who else is this being having sex with? Why is god a “jealous” god? “Thou Shall Not Have Any God Before Me!”  This seems to imply that “he” has real competition in heaven.  And then there is the Trinity idea. Was it too much for one all powerful being, or did he feel the need for company?  I think my biggest problem with religion (even if it substitutes an ideology, like communism) is that it’s so called “morality” is not based on critical thinking but on whatever some god (or dictator) said.  This makes it terribly delusional, dangerous and destructive.